Author Topic: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders  (Read 1703 times)

samcox

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DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« on: December 06, 2013, 02:54:44 PM »
SOMETIMES A BACKUP PLAN TO THE BACKUP PLAN IS A GOOD IDEA AND IS THE PLAN THAT IS USUALLY USED. NOW THAT IM DONE MAKING RIDDLES I THINK WE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DREDGE IN TN. THAT BEING SAID, WE MAY WANT TO CONSIDER A STATE DREDGE PERMIT THAT LIKE A HUNTING LIC. ALLOWS THE STATE TO SEE IT AS ADVANTAGEOUS TO HAVE US BUYING A PERMIT. IT ALSO MAKES US LEGAL MINDED FOLKS TAKE OWNERSHIP OF OUR RIGHT BY WAY OF PURCHASE  UNFORTUNATELY IF IT ISNT PERSONALLY PAID FOR IT ISNT RESPECTED. ALSO IN LUI OF A TOTAL BAN HOW ABOUT A COMPROMISE OF A SEASON, SAY SEPT - MARCH ( not peak fishing / swimming season).  WITH A BACK UP PLAN OF REVENUE TO THE STATE AND A 6 MONTH SEASON (FALL/WINTER) WE MAY HAVE A GREATER CHANCE FOR REESTABLISHING RIGHTS THAT OUR CURRENTLY DENIED US! WHAT SAY YOU CHUCK, AL, AND AS MANY AS WOULD INPUT?
To listen is to LEARN, huh wadya say!

htmagic

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2013, 03:15:28 PM »
And while we're at it, why not make the state PAY us for all the lead and mercury we collect?
Since we're collecting hazardous waste in the state waterways, aren't we IMPROVING the environment?
Also all the trash we pick up.
Of course, we can get paid for all the aluminum cans we collect...

MagicBill
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Chuck Pharis

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2013, 04:42:48 PM »
Very good suggestions Bill. When we met with TDEC and TWRA we told them that the dredgers would not mind paying for a permit. We even suggested a higher charge for out of state prospectors. They said the permits would be free, period.
When the holidays are over we will get our Task Force together and meet with some Senators and Congressmen who are interested in our cause. Money talks and maybe your suggestion will help us get back in the water.
Keep your suggestions coming in. The Task Force is YOU and we are just the middle men. We speak for YOU, so let us know your thoughts.
Thanks,
Chuck
Chuck Pharis
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D-Ferguson

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 04:54:49 PM »
it really has nothing to do with money or interfering with fishing or swimmers, it all has to do with people that think the average person has no business interacting with nature. they are backed by money from the tree hugging bunch. don't get me wrong I'm a tree huger, I love trees I cut them down and make lumber and firewood out of them all the time,
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DGurley

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2013, 05:55:39 PM »
If you want to know what I think I think 10 or 15 of us need to go to Little River when the water goes back down and set up and start dredging and see what happens I'll set up first. If there's no Law on the book that says we can not dredge then we can not be fined. If there was a NO Dredging Law on the book then we can not do it in Tellico or at the GPAA camp. I also think the GPAA should help up with this because we have NO benefit's as a member in this area just free dry camping at the GPAA in coker creek that's it. I made a suggesting 1 year ago at our meeting that we need to get every one to chip in and get a HI DOLLAR lawyer to fight this for us. We can still do this easy just get on all GPAA forms and ask for 1 dollar from all GPAA member to fight this they will give and when they need help WE can give back the help.

Now that's what I think and I live on Little River
David Gurley

  ;D   >:(   8)
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Chuck Pharis

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2013, 06:56:10 PM »
Before we pay for a Lawyer, we need to talk to our Senators and Congressmen. They have a legal staff that our taxes pay for. Let them pay for this first. They have expressed an interest in our cause. Of course our dredging mess is not on the top of their list but we will contact them after the Holidays and try that idea first.
I personally agree with you about the dredging ban law issue. We won't know until someone tries but you would be on your own. The GPAA will not help our State. If they banned dredging on our GPAA property then the GPAA might get involved. That is the reason TWRA and TDEC left our private property alone.
This is not going to be easy but we will do all we can step by step. We had to wait a while to see if TWRA and TDEC was going to post the rules (they told us about) on their web site. They never did that. We have waited long enough. We can now use their stalling tactics against them. This was the reason we HAD TO WAIT a while.
Keep your comments and suggestions coming in. I will get our Task Force together early in 2014 and we will work on our "plan B".
Of course anyone in Tennessee may work on this issue on their own or form their own Task Force.
There are many good comments and suggestions coming in. We compile all of them and will take them with us when we talk to our state Government early next year.
We know everyone if frustrated. You are not alone. We are being taken advantage of and we know it!
You have the right to be upset. 
Chuck
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D-Ferguson

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2013, 07:05:32 PM »
the GPAA could throw $20,000 into this and it wouldn't be any harder on them then one of use spending $2.00 on this. they take in a few million a year and you would think they would want to do everything in there power to take care of this asap.
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Chuck Pharis

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2013, 10:07:52 PM »
I agree with you but I do not think they want to get involved with State issues. We can always talk to them about this but I know they are aware of everything that happens here. I send them reports on where we currently are.
They have printed many articles in the Pick & Shovel. Maybe after we talk with our State leaders we can ask the GPAA to get involved.
Of course any GPAA member can call the home office and voice there opinions. I have already done that many times. The bad news is many other states are in the same boat we are.
Anyone can submit written articles to the Pick & Shovel. We need to get the word out ASAP.
I hope we can convince State leaders that we are NOT destroying the environment. We are cleaning it up and putting found money into circulation. We do not pollute our waterways. We remove harmful metals and feed the fish and local critters too.
Remember what started all of this. A few bad prospectors ruined it for everyone by tearing up Little River and causing problems with the locals there. All of us are in a deep hole and need to get together to dig ourselves out.
As soon as the new year starts our Task Force will meet and we will post our plans here.
We thank everyone for your support.
Again, anyone may work on this issue on their own or form a group. As I said before, there is a reason we had to wait a while. TDEC and TWRA told us they would post the new dredging rules in June and never did a thing. There is a good reason for them to stall. We will use this against them.   
Chuck
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tgwgoat

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 09:55:47 PM »
Would someone please tell me "Who" banned dredging? What Tennessee code did they site when doing so? Who said "Let it be written." "Let it be done".
I have been studying all of Tennessee codes.

I feel like this is where the authority comes from.

Title 69  Waters, Waterways, Drains And Levees

69-3-102.  Declaration of policy and purpose.

  (a) Recognizing that the waters of Tennessee are the property of the state and are held in public trust for the use of the people of the state, it is declared to be the public policy of Tennessee that the people of Tennessee, as beneficiaries of this trust, have a right to unpolluted waters. In the exercise of its public trust over the waters of the state, the government of Tennessee has an obligation to take all prudent steps to secure, protect, and preserve this right.

This is pretty much a catch all part of it.^

Now look at
69-3-103.  Part definitions.
#23 Under the definition of "other waste" you will find "dredge spoils"

I can see where they have the power to shut the dredging down.
Now did they say "dredging for gold" or "all dredging" or "recreational dredging"?
All dredging would include dredging of waterways to keep them open for navigation.

I am not saying to give up.
Do your homework before you jump in head first with that dredge :)

"Never ever give up"

Auprospector

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 07:22:54 AM »
Great Idea, Do not ask the state for anything, instead offer to buy. Money always talks louder. It may not work but , but you will be heard.

tgwgoat

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 09:16:56 AM »
The permits would be free?
There must be different rules for permits that are free and ones that have a fee ($$).
I will find out!
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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 09:35:20 AM »
The last word from TDEC was the permits would be free. The issue is: they told us they would post the recreational prospecting rules (including dredging) in June of this year. That never happened. They met with their Lawyers early in July and everything came to a stall. We waited and waited for something to happen and nothing happened. Now we believe they can't change the rules of the 1972 Tennessee Clean Water Act without going through legal channels and opening this up for public hearings. It seems that TWRA and TDEC just said "NO MORE DREDGING". We do not believe they can do this at the drop of a hat. Now they have not posted anything on their web site (like they told us they would last June). This is what we will take to the state Government and use this to get us back in the water. It might take TDEC and TWRA years to get all of this "legally through". Before that happens, we should be dredging. They told us they did not want to ban dredging, they wanted to set up rules to manage it. We all should be ok with a permit and reasonable rules. Our prospectors will respect nature and should have no problems following simple recreational prospecting rules just like we have done for years in the Tellico Ranger District.
Right now they are stalling hoping we will do nothing. This is not going to happen. After the Holidays are over we will get together and take our issues to our Senators and Congressmen.
More to come,
Chuck
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htmagic

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 11:30:14 AM »
OK, I see my posts ahve stirred up a hornet's nest! Good!

First of all, I WOULD NOT suggest paying a HIGH-PRICED LAWYER. To me, paying ANY lawyer $1 is HIGH-PRICED!
Most of them are IGNORANT of the law anyway! It all revolves around the  Uniform Commercial Code ( UCC or the Code), first published in 1952.

If there is NO LAW on the books for a dredging ban, there is NO LAW AGAINST IT, period! They can't charge you for a statute that DOES NOT EXIST.
Now the trouble is, the law is so CONVOLUTED, you need a LEGAL DICTIONARY to define heads or tails.
And with a sharp lawyer (some read as "crooked"), he/she can define good as evil and evil as good.
So as tgwgoat stated,  Do your homework before you jump in head first with that dredge :)

Years ago, I worked with the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) process with the Department of Energy (DOE). So I am well aware of the environmental impact statement (EIS) and environmental assessment (EA) process. And they require public notices, public participation, and a comment period prior to promulgation of new environmental regulations. The other thing to consider is that the Corps of Engineers "owns" the banks and may require permits to modify them. So that is why the 12-inch rule is applied.

Now to borrow from tgwgoat,

Quote
Title 69  Waters, Waterways, Drains And Levees

69-3-102.  Declaration of policy and purpose.

  (a) Recognizing that the waters of Tennessee are the property of the state and are held in public trust for the use of the people of the state, it is declared to be the public policy of Tennessee that the people of Tennessee, as beneficiaries of this trust, have a right to unpolluted waters. In the exercise of its public trust over the waters of the state, the government of Tennessee has an obligation to take all prudent steps to secure, protect, and preserve this right.

This is pretty much a catch all part of it.^
There, fixed it for you!

I could argue that dredging removes hazardous materials from the water (lead and mercury) and provides food for the fish. Therefore, our dredging efforts, as long as we stay away from the banks and fill in the holes when we're done, provides cleaner waters than before. And as citizens of this state, we are providing a service that the state (government) of Tennessee fails to provide. Thus my tongue in cheek statement that the state should PAY us for our efforts!

And as for dredge spoils, the sediment I put back into the river came from the river. It will settle quickly. It is a lot less than the runoff of sediment from fields, logging, coal flyash, dirt bikes, or other commercial or recreational activities allowed in the state.

Proper education with the state legislators can make a difference. They need to be educated by those informed. And not just by a bunch of "greenie weenies" that cry when someone cuts down a tree. California has too many of those flakes and that's why California is like a box of granola - full of fruits and nuts!

And this should not be limited to just the state but the national parks as well. They allow fishing in the national parks, but who is picking up the lead sinkers, treble hooks, and the like that the fishermen leave behind? If the federal government doesn't have the resources to provide this environmental protection and the people are willing, then the state and the feds should allow it (as long as they allow me to keep the gold I find in the process).  A WIN-WIN for both parties.

(OK, stepping off my soapbox now...)

MagicBill




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MagicBill

tgwgoat

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 12:11:33 PM »
We may be dredging on a small scale but it is still dredging.
Look at this link.
In the link you will find a PDF link to the application for dredging in Tennessee.



"The division has issued general permits for the following activities:"
One of them is "Minor dredging"
I believe we fall into the "Minor dredging and filling".

Study the link and the form good.
There would be no fee for our application.
Does anyone want to apply for this dredge permit?
It may work.
Lets discuss, not fuss.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 12:43:04 PM by tgwgoat »
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htmagic

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 12:35:08 PM »
We may be dredging on a small scale but it is still dredging.
Look at this link.
In the link you will find a PDF link to the application for dredging in Tennessee.

://environment-online.state.tn.us/etdec/DownloadFile.aspx?row_id=CN-1091

"The division has issued general permits for the following activities:"
One of them is "Minor dredging"
I believe we fall into the "Minor dredging and filling".

Study the link and the form good.
There would be no fee for our application.
Does anyone want to apply for this dredge permit?
It may work.
Lets discuss, not fuss.  ;D
Link should be as follows:
environment-online.state.tn.us/etdec/DownloadFile.aspx?row_id=CN-1091

MagicBill
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tgwgoat

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2013, 12:38:42 PM »
Thanks for fixing that.
Here is what the other guys are doing.

tcwn.org/cleanwater8
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htmagic

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2013, 12:44:08 PM »
We may be dredging on a small scale but it is still dredging.
Look at this link.
In the link you will find a PDF link to the application for dredging in Tennessee.

://environment-online.state.tn.us/etdec/DownloadFile.aspx?row_id=CN-1091

"The division has issued general permits for the following activities:"
One of them is "Minor dredging"
I believe we fall into the "Minor dredging and filling".

Study the link and the form good.
There would be no fee for our application.
Does anyone want to apply for this dredge permit?
It may work.
Lets discuss, not fuss.  ;D
I do not think we should go this way. So we apply for a General Permit, no fee required?
Read the rules,
Quote
Requests for General Permit coverage require no fee.  Requests for Individual Permit alterations on private farms and residences require a $50.00
application fee.  Requests for Individual Permit alterations less than 1,000 feet of stream or less than 10 acres of wetland require a $1,000.00
application fee.  Requests for alterations over 1,000 feet of stream and greater than 10 acres of wetlands require a $2,500.00 application fee.

Also pay attention to Section 8: 
Quote
Section 8: Project Description
8.1  A narrative description of the scope of the project
8.2  USGS topographic map indicating the exact location of the project (can be photographic copy)
8.3  Photographs of the resource(s) proposed for alteration with location description (photo locations should be noted on map)
8.4  A narrative description of the existing stream and/or wetland characteristics including, but not limited to, dimensions (e.g., depth,
length, average width), substrate and riparian vegetation
8.5  A narrative description of the proposed stream and/or wetland characteristics including, but not limited to, dimensions (e.g.,
depth, length, average width), substrate and riparian vegetation
8.6  In the case of wetlands, include a wetland delineation with delineation forms and site map denoting location of data points
Keep it simple. I think using this form will open a can of worms...

MagicBill
P.S. The link you sent is blocked here...

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MagicBill

tgwgoat

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2013, 12:46:52 PM »
My first link was to the information about the application. read it.
tn.gov/environment/permits/arap.shtml
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tgwgoat

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2013, 12:48:58 PM »
Thats my point. The application is very detailed.
But it is valid.
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tgwgoat

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2013, 12:53:05 PM »
I study what is written. If it is not written then there is no recourse which ever side you are on.
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htmagic

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2013, 01:33:46 PM »
My first link was to the information about the application. read it.
tn.gov/environment/permits/arap.shtml
OK,

Thanks for providing the link.

I saw this:
Quote
A federal permit may also be required from the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers (Corps) for projects that include the discharge of dredged or fill material into waters of the U.S. including wetlands. This permit is called a ?404 permit. When a ?404 is required from the Corps, a ?401 certification must first be obtained from the division. A ?401 certification affirms that the discharge would not violate Tennessee's water quality standards. The application process for a ?401 certification is the same as the ARAP process.
So a Section 404 (federal) permit is required first. And that may be the rub why Tennessee has not issued any guidelines. But if you think you can apply for a Section 404 permits from the Corps of Engineers (COE), let me know how that goes. If I were you, I'd get the GPAA involved for a Nationwide Permit (NWP) vs. an Individual Permit and state in the application that the collective activities is still minor and will help improve, not degrade the "waters of the U.S.". And someone will have to certify that as well in a stormwater study. This will take far more resources than this chapter is prepared to take on. But nationally, maybe GPAA could be heard. I know some about water quality and am a Professional Engineer (for the District of Columbia, D.C.) but I can see this taking more time than I alone could give at this time. I already work 55 hrs/week at my first job and that doesn't including hunting for gold!  :P

But there appears that there is a legal avenue to pursue but I suggest this may be at a national level. And the state of Tennessee may have realized that too and that is why they are dragging their feet about issuing rules since it appears that they are clearly out of compliance as it stands...   :o

My two cents...

MagicBill


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MagicBill

htmagic

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2013, 01:52:08 PM »
Digging around some more, I found this for that state:
http://tn.gov/environment/water/docs/wpc/cn1091-guide.pdf

Even if you could qualify for a state permit, there is a lot of information required and a state-wide permit would take a large organization to make it happen...
I'm not saying it couldn't be done but the information the state requires ofr a state-wide permit, the application would probably be well over 1000 pages to cover all the areas of the state...

As Chuck says, we are lucky the Rangers allow it where they do...

MagicBill
P.S. At minimum, not only would we send this to the state, but the 8 Environmental Field Offices (EFO) listed....
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 01:55:24 PM by htmagic »
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Chuck Pharis

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2013, 02:47:35 PM »
We also met with The Army Core of Engineers. That whole mess is either in addition to a state permit, or has nothing to do with it. Anyone can file with the ACOE for a dredging permit.
So many other state agencies have to approve it before it goes through.
Our best bet right now is to dredge in the Tellico Ranger District and work with our State Officials to get a statewide prospecting permit.
Our state is full with departments who all think they run everything. Sometimes not one department on their own can approve anything.
Good information everyone. Thanks for the postings.
Chuck
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htmagic

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2013, 04:48:57 PM »
We also met with The Army Core of Engineers. That whole mess is either in addition to a state permit, or has nothing to do with it. Anyone can file with the ACOE for a dredging permit.
So many other state agencies have to approve it before it goes through.
Our best bet right now is to dredge in the Tellico Ranger District and work with our State Officials to get a statewide prospecting permit.
Our state is full with departments who all think they run everything. Sometimes not one department on their own can approve anything.
Good information everyone. Thanks for the postings.
Chuck

Bingo! This is why dealing with them is so frustrating to most. The state has the resources to grind down individuals and make them give up and/or go away...
But we have smart people on this forum and most are dedicated into finding gold.
As a result, we indirectly clean the state waterways.

It is humorous to see the state's definition of pollution:
Quote
Pollution: Alteration of the physical, chemical, biological, bacteriological, or radiological properties of the waters of this state, including, but not limited to, changes in temperature, taste, color, turbidity, or odor of the waters that will:
1. Result or will likely result in harm, potential harm or detriment to the public health, safety, or welfare;
2. Result or will likely result in harm, potential harm or detriment to the health of animals, birds, fish, or aquatic life;
3. Render or will likely render the waters substantially less useful for domestic, municipal, industrial, agricultural, recreational, or other reasonable uses; or
4. Leave or likely leave the waters in such condition as to violate any standards of water quality established by the board.

I could say FISHING has violated all these points! I remember as a kid when I grabbed a branch in the river only to get stuck by a fish hook and a snarl of line in a tree! And that snarl of line is also dangerous to birds and other wildlife. It is as bad if not worse that those plastic rings to hold six packs.
We have already talked about the lead sinkers.
And others have talked about trash and the water quality detriments thereof.
Not to mention the Bisphenol A (BPA) found in plastic bottles and can liners.
Not to mention swimmers that dig holes and create dams to give them a deeper swimming hole are also altering the stream characteristics and actually is dredging but that is overlooked. But I contend whether you use your hands or shovels, it is STILL modifying the stream flow.
But if people messed with them, there would be an outcry.
Well, it's time to educate the public. And what works for them should work for us.
Gold mining has been around a long time and we've cleaned up our act compared to other recreational activities...

MagicBill



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MagicBill

tgwgoat

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2013, 07:00:27 PM »
What I was researching is the "States" authority over dredging and how it works.
To help us understand what could happen if we dredge before a solution has been reached.
That there are laws that pertain to dredging that could be used against someone that puts a dredge in the water.
This is not worth going before a judge with charges placed on you.
I feel like that would bring more negative feelings towards our cause.
Positive thoughts and constructive ideas are what is needed.

Being well informed of both sides of the argument is what I am looking for.
To understand what the responsibility of the sate is helps tremendously.
I have worked with the forest service in my area to legalize the old illegal mountain bike trails that are being used in my area.
I have a good knowledge of the process to get that done. I also learned that the district ranger will do what is best for all the users and the preservation of the forest. They have rules and regulations to follow that are very complex at times. To understand the rules they must follow helps to advance the users cause.

To understand what rules and regulations the state must follow is foremost for me.
Then to understand the citizens rights and responsibilities.

If I have bored you I apologize.

I understand that we are looking for a "Recreational permit / licence".
That has rules and regulations that both sides can agree to.

I would like to be involved in getting this done.
Working on it.
"Never ever give up"

Firefighter 12

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2013, 07:56:16 PM »
I have contacted state representative Mike Bell, from McMinn County. He is a close friend of mine. he is going to try to get us more information on this topic. like us, he is a avid gold prospector and a huge supporter. im waiting on his reply and I will let you all know more details, when I get them....Dustin
Dustin Frank

Chuck Pharis

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2013, 09:07:59 PM »
Dustin, call me when you get some information. Our Task Force will be putting together information asap.
Thanks,
Chuck
818-802-1603
Chuck Pharis
East Tennessee Coker Creek GPAA Chapter President (June 19, 2010 to date) and Chairman Of The Board of Directors.
GPAA Lifetime member, LDMA[/size]

Firefighter 12

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2013, 06:47:20 AM »
ok, I sure will.
Dustin Frank

DGurley

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2013, 02:23:51 PM »
Here's a link I think we all need to join it sounds good anyway Tim sent it to me and I joined today take a look.

http://americanminingrights.com/

 ;D
David Gurley

DGurley

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Re: DREDGE BAN - suggestion to our leaders
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2013, 02:31:30 PM »
PS They want all the info we can give them so they can check into this a little more Chuck you know the most so join up and tell them everything you know it's FREE to join.

Here's the email they sent me today



Hi David,

 

What you can do is tell all your friends about what the government is doing to our industry.  Send us any and all articles you read on the internet and we'll publish them.  Join us on Facebook and we can post information about what is happening in TN.  It really boils down to waking people up to what we are witnessing.  The more that know, the more they get angry and join the fight.

 

Use AMRA as a resource for bouncing ideas off of and know that someone is out there who wants to help you guys.  Do you have any articles about what is happening there?  I'll so some research on your state and see what I can find.

 

Keep in touch using my email: shannonp@americanminingrights.com

 

Mr. Shannon Poe

President, AMRA

 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/americanminingrights
David Gurley